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Jul 2023 2 posts
I think the second-hand skin economy in general is a bad idea and creates the wrong incentives for people purchasing these skins. They shouldn't be purchased as a form of investment, but as a cool looking skin.

I like TF2's implementation of the store, for example. If I see a new taunt released that I think is cool, I don't have to buy it immediately or else the price will go up by a gazillion due to artificial scarcity. I can purchase it when I feel like using it and feel good about my purchase since I didn't have to open a crate to try and get access to it, nor did I have to purchase it on the community market second-hand for a crazy expensive price.

I do understand that FOMO generates more profits though as more money comes in, but I think it's coming in for the wrong reasons and people are buying skins they don't want, they're buying skins as an investment or they're getting ripped off and buying a skin for way more than it was originally priced at. Contrast to crates, where people are buying for a gambling chance of making more money, which isn't great either but I think it's marginally better.

I think these are all fair points, but if the income of the market is intrinsicly linked with funding creators for both skins and games, and FP/S&box itself, then consistent stronger income is a really important metric. 

So it's easy to say that one way would be nice for the player but it feels like a limited time market is probably a compromise that still provides all those outlets with a steady stream. 

I mean as a long time Rust player, the overall consensus is that the biggest and primarily most important issue with high priced skins is that some of them are super pay-to-win in a largely competitive environment. The vast majority of players could care less about climbing skin value beyond that specific issue. 
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Dec 2023 40 posts
How would this work more in detail?

Will it be a monthly rotation of user created cosmetics. So when a user creates their item and it gets approved, it be available on the store starting next month, and will be deleted at the end of said month?
If a user wants their creation to stay on the store longer, will that be possible aswell? and how much longer if so?
If a cosmetic is no longer available, can the creator ask for their cosmetic to be available again? 
If not the case, will a cosmetic need to look different enough than a creators previous cosmetic to be approved?
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Feb 2025 8 posts

Skip this paragraph if not interested in drama to read suggestions and considerations.
Not sure if this thread will still be checked by monsieur Garry, or if it'll just get flooded by Bloodmasked's tirade on how economic models that worked for some of the most successful games on steam (or outside of steam, e.g. roblox), will just scare everyone away. "No one plays rust" is factually wrong, it's literally number 6 in terms of player count as of typing right now, and growing. 

For lootboxes, there's some ethical and legal considerations to be made. Not complying to these would lock you out of large markets like China and some European countries. I think at best, you can ensure "positive ROI" from unboxing through one means or the other. For example, there might an item rotation where items have certain costs associated to them, but once per account, one can get a random item at a discounted price. There is no guarantee there won't be wine aunts that call this "gambling" and idk if I'm a fan of this approach, but it's an illustrative case of how you can have RNG without it being predatory.  

I think the best approach is to just have periodic rotations for items (made by artists), where these become ultra rare after they're cycled out.  This naturally appreciates the prices of these items as the playercount grows; People are more willing to spend money on skins if they know they can sell it in the future at close to net zero or even positive ROI. Moreover, it stimulates people to stay playing the game or to revisit the game if they check their inventory and see their items went up in price. This last part is especially important, since player count/community is everything in platform-esque games like this. 
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Feb 2025 8 posts
If we could monetize you shifting the goalpost, maybe we could all afford to spend our precious days being passive aggressive and entitled online. 
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Sep 2022 57 posts
In all things, ethics takes precedence over economics. 

Loot boxes are an insidious type of pornography from which the human body can't easily take satisfaction. A finetuned reward schedule strings players along with contrived anticipation. Such games of chance would draw the most vulnerable among us toward a blindingly narrow hole of ruination - financial or otherwise.

Given this cost, what is the ethical argument for having loot boxes in s&box?

In exchange for the harm that is likely to be caused, what might be gained? And by whom?

Or do we say "fuck it"? Are we amoral hustlers who wring the weak of all their yummy, yummy blood?
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Dec 2023 40 posts
Lootboxes would be a no for me in any contexts. And fomo cosmetics would be ok if it will be a low percentage of the cosmetics being released. Like with every holiday they're doing it now it seems. 

But once every single skin becomes a choice you'll have to make in less than a month, or else you'll have to pay 1000x it's original price. I think most people would see that as scummy.
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Feb 2025 8 posts
@Proud-devote  From what I've seen in other markets it's only a handful of particularly rare or cracked items (p2w cosmetics) that end up EXPLODING in price. Even when someone does end up buying these, they often can make most if not more of their money back by selling them to someone else that wants it. So long as people who aren't made of money get access to at least 1 skin they like, and the economy doesn't just commit suicide like PUBG because the devs decided to ban trades, I think we have a solution that should make most people happy. 
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Dec 2023 40 posts
Oh that's good! Yes I think FP making both timed and aslways for sale cosmetics.
Letting creators choose their own timing for cosmstics and giving them the 40% cut would be a really good deal to me!
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Mar 2025 2 posts
-=LR=- ZigZag one month ago edited one month ago
Can we get a ban on this "Bloodmasked" guy, adding nothing to the discussion, and spreading massive FUD right now. I find it rather odd that my my neck tattoo NFT dropped $5 in lowest asking price shortly after this troll started flaming the discussion. 

It is critical we find a way to keep the FOMO out, even if it means banning/restricting certain' naysayers IP addresses and perhaps seeing their accounts could be VAC banned to discourage it. 

Please, so far my S&Box investments have been the only things that have netted me positive earnings this bull run.
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Jul 2023 4 posts
Duck one month ago edited one month ago
This may be biased as i am currently attempting to make a living from UGC across a few games.

This probably will be formatted terribly but here we go.

Roblox

Approval - All items meeting the requirements are approved for sale on marketplace.
Time sold - Unlimited, or down to how long the creator wants.
Creator cut - 30% ( i think )
Resale cut - game takes 10-20%, creator takes 0%.

Rust

Approval - Items are selected weekly from a submissions from that week.
Time sold - 1 week
Creator cut - 25%
Resale cut - steam and game takes a cut  ( i think ) creator takes 0%.

CSGO

Approval - Items are picked whenever a new case is released out of all the workshop submissions, very few items per year. 
Time sold - keys are sold indefinitely, but the cases only drop from x time (so there is a limited supply)
Creator cut - x% of each key sale
Resale cut - creator takes no cut of individual resale of their item or the case.

How long does it take to make a cosmetic ?

Obviously this varies a lot depending on complexity and the amount of detail put into a cosmetic. but for example the propane tank helmet i recently made roughly took around a week of 10-12 hour days. But a simple pair of glasses could be made in a single day to a fairly high quality.

The expectation of what UGC should be job wise.

Should an artist be able to make a full-time living creating content? Would this be comparable to a job in the industry with benefits like paying into a pension and affording healthcare, etc.? Or would UGC just be a hobby/part-time job to make some extra income? 

cost / time / quality /  idea


When taking into consideration the quality of a cosmetic, it's often linked to the amount of time the artist is willing to spend for a chance at making money. I think Rust has come to a point where a lot of incredibly talented artists who have created cosmetics for many years have just quit or lowered the quality level a lot because low-quality skins are accepted frequently. I really don't want this to happen to Sbox.

There is a little more nuance, though. The workshop should also be about inspiring the next generation of artists to make things, so these people do need to be acknowledged and rewarded. But there is a line where 1-hour cosmetics are being picked over work of much higher quality. I don’t know what the answer to this is.

I think Rust is a really good example of a system where if you put in effort consistently and make something every single week, you will be rewarded very generously because of the large player base.

CSGO is basically just a gamble. There is a huge number of skins made every single week, and you are basically just entering a lottery. The payout is massive and pays you consistently for years.

I can’t speak for Roblox, but I've spoken to people who earn very good money consistently.

What system works best for the artist ?

A payout system like CSGO, where an artist can get a consistent paycheck for multiple years, feels optimal. You don’t have to worry about rent or payments—you know you have some income coming. But obviously, this system only works because of the loot box system, and people don’t like loot boxes. Is it possible for creators to take x% of the resale of an item on the workshop? I think something like that would be ideal—a constant income after the first bulk payment. 

Cosmetics in games ?

A lot of people in this thread seem to hate the idea of UGC cosmetics in general, and I don’t think I will ever understand that. You don’t have to buy cosmetics—nobody is forcing you. You can just play a game and never even touch them. In a time when artists are pretty much being replaced and devalued by AI (who were never really respected to begin with), a system where human artists can make money is amazing.

Some ideas for implementation

 1 - Cosmetics are reviewed to make sure they are of high quality and meet the standards. 
2 - The creator decides how they want the item to be sold (a) or (b). 
  a - The item is sold for a limited short period of time; after that time, they get x% of the sales. After that time, they get x% of resale on the workshop. 
  b - The item is sold indefinitely or for a very long time, and the creator gets x% of sales and 0% of resale. 

 


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Feb 2023 26 posts
 lol imagine getting taxed 60% by garry and valve's lootcrate mafia before even actual taxes. wouldn't be me! 

I think I speak for everyone at this point when I say; unless you have anything of value to actually add to the conversation, please shut the fuck up. You made your opinion known on the first page and since have successfully added absolutely nothing to the conversation other than clutter up the thread. 
trophy 2475
Dec 2023 40 posts
I do think he's right tho, even if he doesn't have the greatest of tones.
The idea of getting less than 50% of something you made, for how little it may be, is a bit weird out of context. And the context being "well other companies like Roblox take even more" doesn't make more or less good.
Problem is that Valve takes 30% default, and there's no way around that as much as I'd like a 25% 25% 50% cut. So 30% 30% 40% is the best possible cut in this scenario.
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Jul 2023 4 posts
Duck one month ago edited one month ago
Nothing about the tone, its unapologetically dismissing all other viewpoints and not contributing to a constructive conversation. He could have the best arguments in the world but presenting them like that is just a waste of space.

I mean the problem with % sales is that right now it may not be worth someone's time in a high GDP country to create cosmetics. But if Sbox ever reaches the levels of ROBLOX then getting 50% would be insane. There is also the viewpoint that people may just be making cosmetics for fun and any financial reward is appreciated.

sbox is also facilitating a lot of things to make you even be able to earn money so 40% seems incredibly fair to me at this point in time.
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Dec 2023 40 posts
Nah it'll never get ROBLOX big. FP still has a soul. Atleast I hope...
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Aug 2022 73 posts
That's a whole bunch of nothing you just spat out. Are you okay @Bloodmasked? Did the pills wear out?
trophy 135
Jun 2021 50 posts
loot crates are gambling, buying cosmetics directly is not
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Feb 2025 8 posts
Grillboss one month ago edited one month ago
I'd urge people to really take Duck's pov seriously. He's been making quality skins for years in rust now. I can vouch for what he's saying about rust devolving into a marketplace of rushed cosmetics. Additionally, I wouldn't worry about the % cut in particular. If artists  1) Can make a good living out of making skins and 2) Don't have to worry about the lights being on next month, I think they'd be more than content with less than 50%. 


Some ideas for implementation

 1 - Cosmetics are reviewed to make sure they are of high quality and meet the standards. 
2 - The creator decides how they want the item to be sold (a) or (b). 
  a - The item is sold for a limited short period of time; after that time, they get x% of the sales. After that time, they get x% of resale on the workshop. 
  b - The item is sold indefinitely or for a very long time, and the creator gets x% of sales and 0% of resale. 

To this end, to give artists security, some kind of life-time commission might be a good idea. The money made from steam tax might not be a whole lot, but if it helps artists afford their groceries for the month, that should stimulate them to make better skins.

On the other hand, I don't think long term items are a good idea, at least not too many. The reason for this is that most purchases of cosmetics end up being done as soon as an item gets released (barring any extreme increase in player count while it's in store). These items end up just taking up dead catalogue space, where the artist could've made far more if they just released another skin. Also, when these items do get purchased after the initial period, they often end up becoming devalued, to the point the artist likely would've made more money from 2-3% steam tax cut, had it been removed sooner. You can check out scmm and look at some of the earliest rust skins that got released if you want to see what I am basing this on. 

Give artists more guarantees:
To build on both the 2 preceding paragraphs; rust often would accept cosmetics that continue a collection of an item that's already been accepted. Though, this wasn't always consistent and some item collections just don't seem to be completed for unknown and undecipherable reasons. Perhaps having transparancy or even a concrete system that gives artists the reassurance that they're not just playing some kind of lottery and wasting their time and effort, would be in order. Perhaps we could have manual curation for the first item of some collection, and then give them the guarantee that x number of successors will be accepted, so long as they pass some automated checks. There might be some people that try to game this system, but I think most rational people would not be willing to risk their guaranteed income opportunity. Of course automated curation is not necessary if we're dealing with small amounts of cosmetics. 
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trophy 2475
Dec 2023 40 posts
Hey Bloodmasked, without talking negatively on anything else, would you care to share how you would implement custom cosmetics? :)
I only know what you don't want, so I'm interested in hearing what you do want instead.
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Sep 2022 20 posts
Sbox without dota = Dead on arrival

Sbox with dota = Peak
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trophy 2475
Dec 2023 40 posts
It would be really neat for creators to let them release free cosmetics. More cool would be if you could as a player unlock those cosmetics via achievements. So you could get a crown cosmetic for reaching the top of the Jumper tower or get a pixel army cap for getting a big kill streak in Blocks & Bullets 
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Oct 2021 48 posts
It would be really neat for creators to let them release free cosmetics. More cool would be if you could as a player unlock those cosmetics via achievements. So you could get a crown cosmetic for reaching the top of the Jumper tower or get a pixel army cap for getting a big kill streak in Blocks & Bullets 

While this would be cool, what would be stopping a game from just instantly giving you access to every cosmetic? I think cosmetic unlocks in-game should be reserved to cosmetics specifically for that game.
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Jul 2023 4 posts
Duck one month ago edited one month ago
trophy 2475
Dec 2023 40 posts
Trundler yeah that would be difficult. I was thinking about implementing something like only workshop items you make can be given out via your games. But I honestly have no idea how you program that given every game is open source... 

Maybe it is possible, I'm insanely noob to programming
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Aug 2023 70 posts
Yeah just thinking about it sounds like a cool idea, to give each game ability to post items that can be used in the inventory. But prolly most of em items be some banana type sh from trolls flooding everything. Also hard to implement

Would be easier to implement such a system yourself and give ability for players to use these obtained items in all of your games. Like Ubisoft gives minor cosmetics to players that own other titles. 

Last one could be very simple to achieve if you utilize stats


var stats = Sandbox.Services.Stats.GetPlayerStats( "facepunch.ss1", 76561197960279927 );

var zombies = stats.Get( "zombies_killed" );

simply change to

private void Example(){
	var stats = Sandbox.Services.Stats;
	long garry = 76561197960279927;
	foreach(var game in games){
		if (!HasPlayedGame(stats, game.PackageIdent, garry)) continue;
		UnlockCosmetic(game);
	}
}

private void HasPlayedGame(Stats stats, string packageIdent, long userId){
	var stats = Sandbox.Services.Stats.GetPlayerStats( packageIdent, userId );
	var hasPlayedTheGame = stats.Get( "game_played" );
	return hasPlayedTheGame;
}

private void UnlockCosmetic(Game game){
   // write your own logic here lmao
}

people
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