family_starAbout
newspaperBlog
published_with_changesChanges
gamesGames
business_centerWorkshop
sprintDashboard
sprintGame Charts
delivery_truck_speedMap Charts
forumForum
docsDocs
docsDocumentation
dashboardApi Reference
s&box
Forums
General Dev
Workshop Cosmetics
trophy 85
May 2021 11 posts
NotGaylien one month ago
#31
# What happened here is people got upset they didnt get chosen
# moaning you didnt get chosen

while i admit that might have played into it a little bit,
Thats pretty wrong to what artists were saying in cosmetics channel. 
( you can litterally read the chat and see thats alot of what was being said while fp and shadow derailed it to keep accusing artists of being petty )

You appear to have also completely ignore the point of what artists were making...

we keep getting told shit like topology and uvs dont matter as long as the end result is okay.

# But we have been told to follow these guidelines and given instructions to make more grounded realistic styled clothing assets

https://sbox.game/dev/doc/assets/clothing


Thats just confused and upset artists alot, and FP mostly just ignored them and kept repeating they dont matter anymore in the cosmetics channel? then kept treating everyone like they were just bullying shadow and ignoring the main point.

( although sure some were being mean to shadow, but tbh fp and shadow derailed it to that over and over, when that wasnt what people are trying to understand )
2 1
trophy 1280
Apr 2021 324 posts
garry one month ago
#32
The point that was being made about topology and UV wasn't that they don't matter, it's that it's not the deciding factor over whether an item gets picked. Of course if it's bad, it might be the deciding factor in why your item doesn't get picked.

I don't really understand why you feel like having an artist picking is important. What's gone wrong so far? Why am I incapable of making a good decision here?
trophy 2040
May 2021 22 posts
Grodbert one month ago
#33
I think it's worth because an artist will be able to see what a programmer wouldn't, how else would the guidelines be properly enforced otherwise?

The guides provided go into technical details about the good practices, check if the quad distribution makes sense, that the normals aren't inverted somewhere, maybe it uses 6 2k textures when only the albedo and bump textures should, the sculpt baking didn't mess up, maybe the mesh is duplicated or they exported 2 meshes they didn't intend to, there's enough padding so that seams don't appear on the first mipmaps.

It's just worth, once a week, before the cosmetic goes on sale for everyone to buy, that an artist from Facepunch takes a good look and gives the ok.

trophy 175
Jul 2023 9 posts
Duck one month ago edited one month ago
#34
Another thing to keep in mind is that the way you act DOES affect whether your items get chosen or not. If you're always moaning that you haven't been chosen, always slagging off everyone else to make yourself look better, you're going to become known as an arsehole who we don't want to work with. No one has reached that level yet, but it's definitely happened in the Rust community. So maybe keep it in check.

While i fully understand that you have every right to perceive someone speaking upon their experiences or giving an opinion on how the foundation of the workshop is paved in these early days could be related to not being accepted or not being picked first i think it would be nice to also just hear them out and state your position (that has been done now). I can only speak for myself but i had good intentions on the messages i left here.  And i also believe that yourself and matt have clarified your current position on the workshop.

 I feel very conflicted that we have good intentions, and are communicating in an "discussion thread" but our discussion could lead to you banning us. To me i interpreted a lot of the messages from facepunch as dismissive and trying to implement reasoning by my arguments that are just not true. Being told im just moaning and wasting time, im jealous, im trying to impressive other artists etc.

I think the main reason for all of the messy conversations going on that are not constructive are the repetitive linking our concerns with the first picked item and being jealous when that is honestly not the case. All of the points i raised i did so also 4 months ago in your other workshop thread. 

But at this point i do agree that everything has been discussed and things have become personal to some people so its better to stop the convo :)
trophy 2040
May 2021 22 posts
Grodbert one month ago
#35
Yeah it's better to stop the convo, every artist involves, Shadowbrain includes, regardless of opinion, agrees that to properly quality check the items, a Facepunch artist should be involved in the process.
trophy 1280
Apr 2021 324 posts
garry one month ago
#36
The guides provided go into technical details about the good practices, check if the quad distribution makes sense, that the normals aren't inverted somewhere, maybe it uses 6 2k textures when only the albedo and bump textures should, the sculpt baking didn't mess up, maybe the mesh is duplicated or they exported 2 meshes they didn't intend to, there's enough padding so that seams don't appear on the first mipmaps.

Remember that these are "guides" and not "rules".

I really don't need an artist to tell me if something is looks fucked, is too high poly, or has too many textures. This is the point we've been trying to make. We're not going to crawl over assets like a detective trying to find reasons to reject it. These things are all obvious and measurable.

I get that you want items picked on artistic merit, but once again, let me say - we're picking items based on impact, uniqueness, imagination - not based on the best topology.
trophy 4251
May 2021 76 posts
ubre one month ago
#37
Will it be 1 item per rotation?
I'd love to see which other cosmetics made it in.
trophy 1280
Apr 2021 324 posts
garry one month ago
#38
This one will be one item, while we're testing that the system works.

I don't know what we're going to do in the future. I know that I don't want to be doing 5-10 a week like Rust.
trophy 2040
May 2021 22 posts
Grodbert one month ago
#39
Ok that's fine, if you eventually want to hand over the task to someone, I hope it would be Danduw, he has been very involved, passionate, and someone you'd trust would do a excellent job.

You are undoubtedly an industry veteran that has an eye for things, that's why we thought a task like this requires someone with expertise on that field to fill your shoes.
trophy 4251
May 2021 76 posts
ubre one month ago
#40
New items every week definitely sounds too fast for how things are moving right now, once a month sounds good.
trophy 2040
May 2021 22 posts
Grodbert one month ago
#41
Yeah it would make sense to be multiple new items once a month instead of one every week, more time for the players to buy them and so more earned for the creators!
trophy 85
May 2021 11 posts
NotGaylien one month ago
#42
Okay guidelines and such are ideal where you should aim for, less strict you need to be following them more exact, this is alot more clear now.
Thats been my own personal concern from all this, where the line is drawn, what is and isnt allowed. 

with artstyle stuff is that a bit more lax too? You dont have to go exactly realistic? we have a bit more freedom with the styles we make stuff in?

1
trophy 1280
Apr 2021 324 posts
garry one month ago
#43
You have total artistic freedom
2
trophy 85
May 2021 11 posts
NotGaylien one month ago edited one month ago
#44
thats great to hear, i will communicate that to the cosmetic artists,
"feel free to make whatever you want ( within reason considering what was said before as a more ideal place to be around )"

Guidelines should be an ideal / example of where not to go over for complex models.

hopefully that ends all that confusion
trophy 725
Sep 2022 14 posts
MICRØ one month ago edited one month ago
#45
Sorry I'm late to put my $0.02 in here, but:

garry

I think what happened here is that a few people got upset because their item wasn't chosen as the first one. They think their item is better than the one that is chosen, and they want to create rules that favour their items being chosen in the future.

This is a mischaracterization. Speaking for myself, this was not at all about which item got picked. 

I was reacting out of confusion stemming from Matt's message suggesting that UVs are unimportant. This is in contradiction to the message in the wiki emphasizing that UVs *ARE* important. The apparent lowering of quality standards is what drove me to make my posts. I'm sorry for taking Matt's message the wrong way. 

I am delighted to see the workshop materializing and I am under no expectation of having my items selected at all, let alone believing that mine should have been first.  I'm a nobody. I'm a nobody with a 3d hobby at best. 

I just want to make that clear, This is NOT about which item got selected first. This is about clarity surrounding expectations from Facepunch, so that we can continue making high quality submissions in line with what is desired from us. 
1
trophy 2453
Apr 2021 27 posts
ShadowBrain one month ago edited one month ago
#46
As far as I understand it, UVs are not important, visually looking decent is important.

Terrible UVs with loads of tiny islands _usually_ does not look visually good because when a mesh goes further away and the texture mips you'll get loads of seams, so UVs end up contributing to visuals, but if someone gets away with horrible UVs while their item looks good, it does not matter. It can get into the game just fine.

Edit: not making this about me btw, the shark has fine UVs, just saying if it had horrible tiny islands and it looked the same (somehow) it would still get in.
trophy 190
Sep 2025 4 posts
Gunter one month ago
#47
I do love the idea where you can just trade your created cosmetics and make money from them. The issue with tradable or limited time skins are they won't be profitable for creators.
Tradable / marketable:  
  • They will be sold on third party websites (no profit from selling, unlike steam market) 
Limited time: 
  • Less people will buy it directly from the official store, generating less money for the creators pool 
  • By adding quality control, and limiting the time for purchasing from the official store, it might detour creators to make new skins in the future.
In my opinion:
  • Speculators and gambling will follow
  •  For me Garrys mod felt more about sharing creations with friends, but if currently, your friends have to buy your skins it feels like in the future, props and maps might follow.
 Cosmetics should be handled the same way as creator props and not be limited time.
2 1
trophy 1430
Apr 2021 99 posts
matt one month ago
#48
More people buy them when they are limited so the creators make more. This is backed by years and years of data. It's why everyone does this.
1 1
trophy 190
Sep 2025 4 posts
Gunter one month ago
#49
If we only talk only about the limited time point they would get more money in sort term and if they would be released like in cycles - yes, but Rust skins are one time thing so no.  It is hard to believe if you would add skin for 30 days instead for like 3 years the skin would earn less money for creator. If you have any market papers on that i would like to see them, might help me with monetization in future :D 
2 1
trophy 6889
Jan 2023 10 posts
Lilly one month ago
#50
Naw gunter none of your points make sense.
Limited time skins sell better than long term ones because of a fear of missing out, and they sell better on the market because they become speculative and the supply is limited.
1
trophy 115
Sep 2025 1 post
Depreee birdy one month ago
#51
To be fair I was also under the impression that long-term sales are better for items always available than limited time ones. You mentioned years and years of data to back this up, but could you please share some of it? I was searching online and couldn't find any articles/research to support this. 

Additionally, Gunters point about them being sold on third-party websites still stands because in the case of Counter Strike skins, the rare ones go for high enough prices to not be worth being sold directly on steam market. These skins are just manually traded and money exchanged via paypal or similar. Just my 2 cents
1
trophy 1040
Feb 2023 53 posts
fishy one month ago
#52
I would also be interested if there was any data you could share. Limited time might sell well at the start but who's to say that might even out over 2 or so years.
trophy 1280
Apr 2021 324 posts
garry one month ago edited one month ago
#53
Well here's the prison jumpsuit.

The shark head has been on sale for 7 days and has already sold 3,200 items. 

We can debate whether that's the shark head vs the jumpsuit from a wearable pov, and we can debate whether one has had more promotion over the other.

I think the theory that people feel more ready to buy these items if they know they'll have decent resale value at some point in the future makes the most sense.
7
trophy 2453
Apr 2021 27 posts
ShadowBrain one month ago
#54
I do still think people getting their items accepted need the option to add theirs permanently like I was offered, but they should all know that it takes anywhere from 1 to 2 years to get to the sales numbers of the first week of a temporary item.

I'm not sure who would choose permanent if presented by that data but it'd be someone who cares more about the principle and less about it being practically pointless for them income-wise, and this person probably exists given the general public outcry against fomo items.
Plus, I guess over a LOOOONG period it might make more money, I guess.
I reckon there's also a falloff on permanent item sales as more permanent items get added over the years, which will be hard to account for.
2 1
trophy 190
Sep 2025 4 posts
Gunter one month ago
#55
Adding skin gambling (like loot boxes) and battle passes be next logical step to make more profits, if it helps make better game modes i do not mind.

One of the sad thing is that skins wont be on store when there are player spikes. Shark head creator will not be able to make money from it when game launches with ~100k players, even tho he contributed at start of the game when it most needs community creators to pull in players.

Overall ShadowBrain idea that you can chose which option you want fast or slow but constant profits or even make it  on a rotation (for the fomo) would be better for creators.

If we want to nick pick then the closest comparison for prison jumpsuit would be "Easter Dungarees 2025", cuz they have the same slot, they both are not as flashy unlike a freaking shark on your head(idk how can you NOT buy it). 3,200 in 7 days, to 500 in a year its sounds amazing, those are numbers i love !
3 1
trophy 3904
Oct 2021 15 posts
Jammie one month ago
#56
I feel like a happy medium could be reached if community skins could be available for a limited time, and then put back into the rotation at a later date.
5 2
trophy 4251
May 2021 76 posts
ubre one month ago
#57
could be available for a limited time, and then put back into the rotation at a later date.
The speculators are very against that

2
trophy 869
Apr 2024 2 posts
sEEk one month ago
#58
 if community skins could be available for a limited time, and then put back into the rotation at a later date.

That only makes sense, if the skins are non tradeable / non marketable. In that case you'd be better off giving the creator the option whether it's a permanent item or limited time. 
1
people
Log in to reply
You can't reply if you're not logged in. That would be crazy.