S&box situation is just sad

Started by marat · 7 months ago · 94 replies · 5,736 views

#61
D:
Member
JoinedJun 2024 Posts9 Score195
Even if you think you make a good game nobody can guarantee that people will play it enough for you to earn money to live your life.  If you want your every game to earn money you have to prove yourself, start somewhere, develop a fanbase. How many of those "cool youtubers" started their channels as a hoby? How many of them were working full time jobs until they became popular? If you want to become an indie dev and don't have enough money the only way is to work on your free time, no other way around.
#62
man of piss and shit
Member
JoinedSep 2023 Posts31 Score3,455
i'm convinced that every dissenter here is a slopper-to-be aiming to strike gold lmao. the big slop is watching us.
anyways i've layed my case. hopefully there will be an overhaul soon cause the discovery tab is frying my fucking brain.
#63
Mi.ke
Member
JoinedAug 2021 Posts17 Score760
Dude are you a troll?

You just basically said "since you dont need the money, You will get No money" Who do you even think your arguing with, I dont think a single developer of these "slop games" have responded in this thread, so somehow the devs that you say dont exist are arguing with you.


#64
D:
Member
JoinedJun 2024 Posts9 Score195
Ok, let's image a hypothetical scenario. Let's say there are only 2 games on the platform. A call of duty like multiplayer mod and your 4 hour masterpice. Lets say total online on platform is 100.000 players and monthly playfund is 100.000$. Assuming people will spend on average 2h a weekday playing this call of duty mod. We get  this numbers:
1. Multiplayer game playtime = 2h * 5d * 4w * 100.000p = 4.000.000h
2. 4h game playtime = 4h * 100.000 = 400.000h
3. Total playtime = 4.400.000h
4. 4h game playfund = (400.000 / 4.400.000) * 100.000 = 9.000$
5. Multiplayer playfund = 91.000$
And multiplayer game will keep earning same amount of money each month, while singlplayer game is dead. Does this seem fair? And how do you want to fix it? Do you want to strip multiplayer games from playfund? What if it's not multiplayer, but a game with replayability like minecraft or some rogulike? Maybe decrease playfund for multiplayer games, but is that fair, what if multiplayer game took more time to make? 

All I wanted to say is that you can remove all slop games, but then you have multiplayer games, coop games, games with infinite replayability, that will eat same playfund. Do you think people who play slop games will go to your singleplayer game instead of a multiplayer one? There is no world where it works as you want it to work, slop or no slop.
edited 7 months ago#65
man of piss and shit
Member
JoinedSep 2023 Posts31 Score3,455
D: i actually have no issue with this situation as long as slop games dont get incentivized or take the position of that cod mod, and as long as the cod mod isn't sloppy itself, regardless of whether it's fair or not. it's not a binary issue where either everything is perfectly fair or everything goes down the shitter.

Mi.ke relaxe i was joking with that accusation. also, i would never advocate for no play fund. i just want it to not incentivize slop. i brought that up because your argument would only work if the play fund didn't need to exist. (in a world where everyone is like you, it wouldn't. but most people need incentives to join the effort)
#66
Titanovsky
Member
JoinedSep 2021 Posts331 Score4,148
what's going here?
edited 7 months ago#67
badandbest
Member
JoinedJul 2022 Posts21 Score575
I don't think the problem is with playfund itself. I think all signs point to the discoverability in s&box favoring slop.

The average player is only gonna play whats on the front page. If the front page is all slop, they will play slop. This will make it get recommended to more people and the cycle continues until the front page is nothing but slop.

Good games obviously won't make playfund when they aren't even presented as an option to players.
edited:
What is the point of 3 categories showing the same bullshit? What kind of discoverability system is that?? How are people expected to find good games?
#68
Remscar
Member
JoinedMay 2021 Posts49 Score2,705
While i get the opinion that clicker/idle games are lame and there's a lot of them, when I look at the top games I only see maybe 1/4 of them fall into that category.
#69
iGaming
Member
JoinedMar 2024 Posts51 Score1,775
It's very stupid to make this analyzation when there isn't even a large playerbase to gage this properly. 
Like many others have mentioned, it's an issue of the discoverability system.

You see a lot of what you consider to be low quality become very popular on other platforms such as R*bl*x, not just because of how popular it is, but because people like you love to leave out important details like how these titles are usually made simple to appeal to younger audiences which may be on devices that don't have the same input capabilities as a keyboard. It's not a far-fetched concept that an iOS and Android port could be devised for the current client once the first release build comes out and everything becomes more stable. 

I for one think that obviously just like in Garry's Mod servers anything worth playing will show it by playercounts and word of mouth in places like this very exact forum. I think, IDK, it might be the reason that when you release a game on here you can make a forum for it???
#70
vVIGAZz
Member
JoinedOct 2023 Posts17 Score220
I've carefully read everything here, and I've written a lot about clickers myself. I believe they're unfairly paid, and I think it's a scam. But my view is this: the platform is focused on online games, followed by solo roguelikes, farming games, and simulators, which retain players well. For the act of creativity—and I'm not saying online games or simulators aren't creative, but for these true indie games, exporting to Steam will soon be possible.
We as developers need to build our audience anyway. This is how it works in the entire creative business. The platform only provides the initial impetus, either a replayable project that hooks them, or this impetus helps them figure out where to go next. The rest is up to the developer and the marketing of their game. The engine allowed us to add online play with practically the click of a button, and although I'm still a programming novice, I understand how much easier online play is here than anywhere else. Facepunch have opened up all their projects so we can follow along and ask the AI ​​questions.
Yes, it would be great to have a guide or more detailed documentation, but we need to remember what the platform is designed for. If you want to make money, make a replayable or online game. If you can't adapt your idea to that, build an audience around your magnum opus, invite them to the platform, and get some seed money. Until exports appear, you won't be hungry, and you can improve the project in the meantime.
I personally prefer solo games, but developing a game here, I understand that I need to learn how to do online play. This doesn't stop me from prototyping my core idea, blogging about it, and building my own audience.
Game development is always marketing; it's never going to be like your game simply making all the money in the world. On Steam, clickers would have gone unnoticed by everyone, and the developers spent $100 on it - well, they're stupid, but here they're still being allowed to make money, but I believe that once the audience comes, they won't get anything at all.
#71
Drunkdiver
Member
JoinedJul 2022 Posts35 Score16,778
I can beat everyone in this thread in physical combat. I am the strongest person on Earth.
#72
Ardi Vaba
Member
JoinedJul 2022 Posts14 Score495
@badandbest in the house with the absolute win...this is exactly the actual issue that needs to be discussed, it's almost like everyone took their eyes off the ball and started looking at a wrong ball because it existed.
#73
matt
Facepunch
JoinedApr 2021 Posts267 Score2,045
whenever you guys say slop it invalidates everything else you say
#74
[LarvA BonG] Xx.P3t3rGr1ff1n.xX
Member
JoinedAug 2022 Posts20 Score1,880
Facepunch employee once again falls back on terrible take to avoid actually debating or even addressing the topic
#75
ducc
Banned
JoinedSep 2022 Posts101 Score155
No one pushes back in the office, so he thinks he's actually respected lmao.
edited 6 months ago#76
ItsyBitsy349
Member
JoinedAug 2024 Posts5 Score105
It's impossible to criticize Facepunch in the s&box server in any way, you get insta banned.
Everyone secretly hates Matt in the s&box server, but no one can actually admit it and say it in his face.

I'm a proud hater.

Not a healthy environment, it has been a police state since the beginning, just like the UK.

Has the worst fucking takes I've ever seen, the problem is right in your face, which badandbest pointed out, there's 3 rows of the same top games that are shit to play, and the good game argument doesn't really work, because Dark Descent (which is an example of a good game), both in quality and engagement is still way down below on the Playfund charts.
edited 6 months ago#77
matek
Member
JoinedMay 2021 Posts32 Score1,985
It's impossible to criticize Facepunch in the s&box server in any way, you get insta banned.
Everyone secretly hates Matt in the s&box server, but no one can actually admit it and say it in his face.

I'm a proud hater.

Not a healthy environment, it has been a police state since the beginning, just like the UK.

Has the worst fucking takes I've ever seen, the problem is right in your face, which badandbest pointed out, there's 3 rows of the same top games that are shit to play, and the good game argument doesn't really work, because Dark Descent (which is an example of a good game), both in quality and engagement is still way down below on the Playfund charts.

Why not just post on your main account instead of hiding behind an alt?
#78
ducc
Banned
JoinedSep 2022 Posts101 Score155
Why not just post on your main account instead of hiding behind an alt?

To answer your question, think about what someone risks losing when they make a public statement against Facepunch:
  • Potentially life-changing playfund money.
  • Rapport with the programmers who fix bugs and implement features.
  • Peace of mind, as Small Fish and certain Facepunch programmers like to make random community members their personal lolcow, or "bitch eating crackers."
Facepunch has all the power here, and I can't blame anyone for not speaking up - the community understand what they would be risking by speaking out. This is the essence of the "filter" that has allowed things to get so bad in the s&box community.

Why risk drawing all of that negativity when the Godot engine is right there, waiting with open arms?

I can answer that question only for myself.

On one hand, the future of s&box is threatened by the current culture of derision and exclusion that hangs over every interaction with the reactionary clique within Facepunch.

On the other, I believe that the community is capable of doing great things in spite of the chauvinism and animus demonstrated by nearly half of the s&box engine programmers.

As is tradition, a community has organically sprung up around something good that Garry made. And also, as is tradition, Garry turns his back on the community for whose safety he is morally responsible.

I understand the impulse to skip town and shy away from responsibility. But any father should understand why that can't be one's relationship to duty. Sometimes you're "in the shit," but in a way where the solution isn't to "just code harder," but to "listen to the people placing their trust in you, and empathize."
edited 6 months ago#79
marat
Member
JoinedOct 2025 Posts35 Score1,575
dunno what you're saying, this is my main. But of course a leftie like you hates when people can speak their mind freely without being afraid of twitter-nowbluesky cancel mob. I just wanted to talk about state of the platfrom  ahead of the upcoming release,  and your first post in this thread was about politics.
edited 6 months ago#80
Arcev
Member
JoinedOct 2022 Posts61 Score150
To answer your question, think about what someone risks losing when they make a public statement against Facepunch:
  • Potentially life-changing playfund money.
  • Rapport with the programmers who fix bugs and implement features.
  • Peace of mind, as Small Fish and certain Facepunch programmers like to make random community members their personal lolcow, or "bitch eating crackers."

Whoever posts on alts just to avoid not getting paid by the people that give you a platform (and removing them from discourse of said platform) shows there is either disregard for rules or trying to hide from accountability via their statements.

FP; and thus a extension to the S&box community have the right to revoke anyone (obv) as they see fit if it means hurting the public impression of their work of 10+ years. Discourse that continues (indirectly) to scrutinize their employees (political or otherwise) based on their personal opinion rather than their objective work is doing a disservice and even downplaying the talent that went into the creation of the engine. As long as FP doesnt include their emotional baggage into making the engine worse, this discourse does nothing for constructive reasoning on making the community or its works better.

We should instead be looking to intercept ideas that FP introduce in the future that would jeopardize the integrity of the platform/engine they are creating and paying us to create for (Particularly of the PlayFund and its usage patterns since people wish to leverage this against others). This means examining their commits, changes, web availability, and PlayFund handling; publicly. In a opinion of mine, the energy towards objective-based examination of the engine's changes makes a better future for the engine and the people that create with it. Its clear with enough people saying something that it will be heard by garry and other FP staff. 

I agree with those that share the sentiment to greatly reduce problematic political discourse without stifling it completely. (tbh some are funny)
edited 6 months ago#81
ducc
Banned
JoinedSep 2022 Posts101 Score155
dunno what you're saying, this is my main. But of course a leftie like you hates when people can speak their mind freely without being afraid of twitter-nowbluesky cancel mob. I just wanted to talk about state of the platfrom  ahead of the upcoming release,  and your first post in this thread was about politics.

Why are you posting your hours? Is that how it works?

Okay. I declare that this thread is now about politics.

Only kidding - I wouldn't use my s&box hours to limit discussion like that. I recognize that threads can be more about just one thing; they are fluid, like gender! 

I reject the premise that I am being especially "political" in this topic. Any attempts to pigeonhole me as such will be met with uncomfortable realizations about the type of person who believes that they have the right to decide for others what topics of discussion are "too political" to engage with.

I am actually being remarkably "offline" and "normal" about it. If you disagree, that is your right, and I would be eager to hear of why you disagree!
edited:
Whoever posts on alts just to avoid not getting paid by the people that give you a platform (and removing them from discourse of said platform) shows there is either disregard for rules or trying to hide from accountability via their statements.

Anonymous whistleblowers are a good thing, actually, considering that:

FP; and thus a extension to the S&box community have the right to revoke anyone (obv) as they see fit if it means hurting the public impression of their work of 10+ years.

I want Facepunch to do better. If everyone who tells Facepunch to do better gets erased, then nothing will get better.

Discourse that continues (indirectly) to scrutinize their employees (political or otherwise) based on their personal opinion rather than their objective work is doing a disservice and even downplaying the talent that went into the creation of the engine. As long as FP doesnt include their emotional baggage into making the engine worse, this discourse does nothing for constructive reasoning on making the community or its works better.

There's a great tweet from a brilliant mind that I love, Sam Pavlovic, in which he states that the immigration is good because you want as many different people as possible to be available to build good things.

I agree! Immigration is objectively good for business! 

Now, what if someone says that no one at all should immigrate? That seems objectively bad for business!

We should instead be looking to intercept ideas that FP introduce in the future that would jeopardize the integrity of the platform/engine they are creating and paying us to create for (Particularly of the PlayFund and its usage patterns since people wish to leverage this against others).

Tolerance of bigotry threatens the integrity of the platform.

This means examining their commits, changes, web availability, and PlayFund handling; publicly. In a opinion of mine, the energy towards objective-based examination of the engine's changes makes a better future for the engine and the people that create with it. Its clear with enough people saying something that it will be heard by garry and other FP staff. 

You are free to remain as subjectively "apolitical" as is your preference. After all, I presume that you are not the steward of a community comprising many diverse perspectives.

I agree with those that share the sentiment to greatly reduce problematic political discourse without stifling it completely. (tbh some are funny)

Jokes are funny to me when they express understanding and cleverness. Saying offensive things to get a reaction is funny in the same way that frying ants with a magnifying glass is funny.
#82
Arcev
Member
JoinedOct 2022 Posts61 Score150
I reject the premise that I am being especially "political" in this topic.

Only reason I mentioned it is due to pattern recognition within the discourse topics overall. I happen to know some of the background knowledge on this but some people do not moderate themselves accordingly in order to maintain objective discussions.

Any attempts to pigeonhole me as such will be met with uncomfortable realizations about the type of person who believes that they have the right to decide for others what topics of discussion are "too political" to engage with.

"Too political" is a valid claim for determining their discourse patterns and if they are to be constructive in objective discussions. (i.e. Trump bad. Harris good. Iran good/bad, etc) In cases that I know about, this sows misdirection of the common goals of productive, objective discussion; therefore disrupts/hijacks the discourse channels. 
We could instead have outcomes that bring focus to some original topics in hopes of finding compromise and solutions.

You are free to remain as subjectively "apolitical" as is your preference. After all, I presume that you are not the steward of a community comprising many diverse perspectives.

My goal to being as objective and logically centric as possible is so that people are to find the solutions that work for their problems on a case-by-case basis. Politics discourse (generalizing here) is too polarizing to have purely objective discussions around; thus poison the well of discourse with subjective reasoning. (i.e. People cant lock in to get work done if they are worried about people dying 10,000 miles away.)

However, this is getting off-topic and irrelevant to the OP, lets return to talking about that instead.

whenever you guys say slop it invalidates everything else you say

@matt
According to the OP,  PlayFund needs a form of soft curation.
If not, the quality of games and discoverability will be snuffed out by the "slop" you invalidate or choose not to address.
Is the vision of the platform to mimic the free marketplace of ideas like Roblox?
#83
ducc
Banned
JoinedSep 2022 Posts101 Score155
I am at a loss for words. You... win the debate.

Never before have I seen a series of arguments so logical, so objective. You have blown away my prevarication, and laid bare the cognitive biases and logical fallacies that constitute the core of my worldview.

Though I have been defeated with facts and logic, I remain determined to better myself. 

I will give Nick Fuentes a blowjob.
#84
vVIGAZz
Member
JoinedOct 2023 Posts17 Score220

Я согласен с теми, кто разделяет мнение о необходимости значительно сократить проблемный политический дискурс, не подавляя его полностью. (честно говоря, некоторые забавные)

What's the point of politics in the entertainment industry? Politics is a hypocritical place, and if you have strong opinions on one side or the other, it's time you graduated from high school. These are literally arguments about nothing, and the value of such posts is zero. Meanwhile, there are already controversial figures on the platform, like Matek and Ubre, who should learn to watch their language in public. I understand that it's fashionable now to smear all Russians with shit, but guys, If your aggression were directed at other cultures, it would seriously damage your studio. Just be careful.
Any political debate results in the other person being either a schoolboy or an idiot who has taken a hard line and doesn't notice the shit under their feet, but either way, it's a dialogue between two rage-addled kids.

Regarding the backlash against Matt, can you imagine a situation where someone at Valve says your game is crap or AI-sloppy, and you'll have to pay for it? As I said, it's important to be careful what you say, because the backlash can come pretty quickly.
I still hold the opinion that games like these have no place in any market; they're unfairly taking money from the fund, and it's not even clear whether there's any rigging involved. But I'm looking at this situation from a player's perspective; I wouldn't spend my time on a platform like that. As a developer, I don't intend to do things like that, and as a developer, I don't care who tops the revenue charts; my goal is to make a good and engaging project.

Regarding AI slops, developers, there are literally games on the platform where nothing happens. So, should they be banned too? I urge you to ban cheating on the platform, because I don't believe that more than 10 single-player clickers attract so many people. Otherwise, let newcomers do what they're capable of; they've been given a platform to interact with real players, something no other engine can offer.
And if you want to be at the top, don't forget what the gaming business is all about. Think about marketing, even if we're talking about S&Box. It will help you with the Steam release.

#85
matt
Facepunch
JoinedApr 2021 Posts267 Score2,045
It's impossible to criticize Facepunch in the s&box server in any way, you get insta banned.
Everyone secretly hates Matt in the s&box server, but no one can actually admit it and say it in his face.

Feel free to call me a cunt all day, it won't get you banned - we don't really ban anyone, you're free and invited to criticize us and what we're doing, and we're free to dismiss bad takes like the majority of this thread.
#86
Skipin
Member
JoinedOct 2021 Posts94 Score1,432
I'm not reading all of that
edited 6 months ago#87
ItsyBitsy349
Member
JoinedAug 2024 Posts5 Score105
#88
ducc
Banned
JoinedSep 2022 Posts101 Score155
Good moderation is not objective. At some point, you're gonna have to make subjective judgement calls like:
  • What is the apparent tone of this message?
  • Does this user seem to be acting in good faith?
  • Does this message seem likely to cause disruption?
Also, one's values are not objective. It's not possible to objectively form a set of values. Everything you do is a result of what you value, and some people just have crappy values.

For example, I value tolerance, compassion, and understanding. I think these are pretty cool values, but they are not "objectively" correct. 

Love is not objective! Art is not objective!

So please, can we stop fetishizing objectivity? It's okay to feel things, and to have opinions that aren't rigorously proven. No one has the bandwidth to live and act "perfectly," but we can at least try to act in a way that respects ourselves and each other.
#89
matt
Facepunch
JoinedApr 2021 Posts267 Score2,045
Banned ducc for criticizing me
#90
greek gangster 47
Member
JoinedJul 2024 Posts62 Score3,629
let's eat some pizza
people
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